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Author Topic: this is why we raise  (Read 6857 times)
RealityRSV
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« on: June 04, 2012, 10:19:46 AM »

PokerStars Hand #81478020245: Tournament #570111801, $13.78+$1.22 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2012/06/04 17:08:07 WET [2012/06/04 12:08:07 ET]
Table '570111801 5' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: V@dik_82 (755 in chips)
Seat 2: Juritmix (1365 in chips)
Seat 4: RealityRSV (3100 in chips)
Seat 5: G-Pro74 (4230 in chips)
Seat 6: Perich85 (835 in chips)
Seat 7: luis kies (1660 in chips)
Seat 8: januzzz85 (1070 in chips)
Seat 9: pittex (2330 in chips)
V@dik_82: posts small blind 50
Juritmix: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to RealityRSV [Js Ah]
RealityRSV: raises 145 to 245
G-Pro74: folds
Perich85: folds
luis kies: folds
januzzz85: folds
pittex: raises 755 to 1000
V@dik_82: folds
Juritmix: raises 365 to 1365 and is all-in
RealityRSV: folds
pittex: calls 365
*** FLOP *** [3s 7c 2s]
*** TURN *** [3s 7c 2s] [2c]
*** RIVER *** [3s 7c 2s 2c] [9c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Juritmix: shows [As Ad] (two pair, Aces and Deuces)
pittex: shows [Kh Ac] (a pair of Deuces)
Juritmix collected 3025 from pot

PokerStars Hand #81478426745: Tournament #570111801, $13.78+$1.22 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2012/06/04 17:16:42 WET [2012/06/04 12:16:42 ET]
Table '570111801 5' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: V@dik_82 (905 in chips)
Seat 2: Juritmix (3950 in chips)
Seat 3: masomara (2620 in chips)
Seat 4: RealityRSV (1955 in chips)
Seat 5: G-Pro74 (3830 in chips)
Seat 6: Perich85 (1905 in chips)
Seat 7: RS2 AUDI (2670 in chips)
Seat 8: januzzz85 (920 in chips)
Seat 9: pittex (1880 in chips)
pittex: posts small blind 100
V@dik_82: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to RealityRSV [7c Qc]
Juritmix: folds
masomara: folds
RealityRSV: raises 245 to 445
G-Pro74: folds
Perich85: folds
RS2 AUDI: folds
januzzz85: folds
pittex: folds
V@dik_82: raises 460 to 905 and is all-in
RealityRSV: calls 460
*** FLOP *** [4s Jh 3s]
*** TURN *** [4s Jh 3s] [2c]
*** RIVER *** [4s Jh 3s 2c] [Qd]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
V@dik_82: shows [Ts 4d] (a pair of Fours)
RealityRSV: shows [7c Qc] (a pair of Queens)
RealityRSV collected 1910 from pot
V@dik_82 finished the tournament in 27th place
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Mars
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« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2012, 06:00:39 PM »

Gasp! Raising for information?!  Shocked

On a serious note, I'm actually not sure I'd raise either hand (albeit for a reason other than "for information").

8-handed, AJ out of position is just asking for trouble, plain and simple.  Realistically, I think you lucked out by running into people playing their AA and AK so aggressively.  This is a hand that I like to fold right off the bat, no questions asked.

The second hand is dependent entirely on fold equity - if this was a rare occurrence, fine - but the fact is by making that raise you are pricing yourself to call the all-in over the top - which even when you're live, you don't like calling off half your chips with live cards.  Mind you, at a cash game this would be a completely different story.
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RealityRSV
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« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2012, 04:50:18 AM »

Not just raising for info Mars, I'd say this is more raising for IMAGE.  I agree in a lot of scenarios ie a tight table or deeper chipstacks, then raising either of these hands is asking for trouble... on a looser or fishier table however, this sells an image of being overactive and encourages certain players to bet back.  Ask yourself, If you never open raise the bottom of your range would villain consider calling with holdings such as {A9s+,A10os+,KJs+,KQos,QJs,22+} or re-raising with {88+,AJs,AKos}?

By betting these hands ourselves we block out most of the nit/rocks calling/raising range.... but price in a lot of fish, donks, LAGs and stations.  And because we are more active, we are more likely to get action when we do have our monster range, and are more likely to play for a bigger pot rather than a small one.

You are correct in that this is probably horrible play for cash games, but these are turbo MTTs and SNGs.  Perhaps I should have mentioned that...  I've found open raising to be a lot more profitable than playing the tighter image in this format.

Still, the thread idea is valid... sometimes it gets overlooked just how impotant it is to understand WHY you should bet in certain spots, and I hope this can become a dump for HHs where we can either post what we believe are examples of good play, or hands for analysis. 

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Mars
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« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2012, 08:24:49 PM »

I agree with you on raising for image.  I disagree on the MTT part of it (or rather, certain stages of an MTT or SnG).

At a cash game, the average stack should have 100 blinds, give or take.  Because of this, you can make raises for image - sure I might lose 3 big blinds this hand but the next time I do the same thing with aces I'll be profiting 20 or more!

In an MTT or the early stages of a SnG, if the table is still deep-stacked, this still applies.  However, if the average stack is down to 11 blinds or so, you simply don't have the wiggle room anymore to create your image - by this point your image has been created, you should use it to your advantage certainly but you really shouldn't try to encourage people to challenge you anymore (unless of course you have the goods).

A few nights ago I played a 5 card draw play money tournament on stars, I took 11th place or so out of 600-700 players.  Granted, as it was play money it wasn't the toughest field I'll ever go against but I'd still apply the same basic strategy in a $100 tourney:

Assuming I had chips, I built up a very LAG image - raising with all sorts of hands - up until I was called down and people could clearly identify me as a maniac.  At that point, I tightened way the hell up, and simply collected the chips when I was dealt a hand.  I would continue this until it was obvious I was seen as a tight-ass, at which point I'd start up again with the LAG act.

However, this all relied heavily on my having chips to lose - in a tournament, the fewer chips you have, the more valuable those chips are.  This is a principle the Independent Chip Model (something I am a firm believer in) is based upon.  If I have only 10 blinds left, I can't call off 5 blinds (or raise 5 blinds) looking to enhance my image, as it's simply too costly.

Another way to think about it:
Let's say you're homeless, and have $100 to your name.  Someone comes along and offers a wager: Put $1,000,000 on the line against your $100, all you need to do is correctly guess the roll of a die (we're assuming it's a fair die).  Oh, right...you also had anything to eat or drink in 3 days, and you're right outside a Burger King.

Now take the same situation, only instead of being homeless, you're someone who is doing well - maybe not outstanding, but you can afford to pay your bills and are able to scrap together some savings each month.

While $1 million will go incredibly far in either of these cases, the fact is in the second scenario it's quite obvious you could afford to risk $100 for such a huge reward given the risk.  In the second scenario, if you lose the wager, you don't put quite as much away for the month - maybe you don't put anything away - but you're still doing well.  In the first scenario, if you're not right, you starve, plain and simple.  This is exactly how MTTs and SnGs work when it comes to comparing the big stack with the short stack.
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